Todd Sullivan:
Hi, this is Todd Sullivan, and welcome to the Cannamedia Podcast. Each week we will bring you a podcast that covers the cannabis industry. You’ll hear from medical professionals, educators, newsmakers, entrepreneurs, and the investors who fund them, in our attempt to bring you a complete view of the cannabis landscape, as it continually evolves. We hope you enjoy it. All right everybody, hey, thank you very much for joining in today, we have a really exciting, exciting podcast today. We’re speaking with Warren Bobrow, who is the pioneer of cannabis-infused drinks, and has written not one, not two, but six books on the subject. You can get his latest right here, it’s available on Amazon.com. I highly, highly suggest that everyone get it and read through it. It is not just a simple recipe book for drinks, it is a science book on the science of cannabis, the science of extracting the THC from cannabis and infusing non-alcoholic and alcoholic drinks with cannabis. It’s really one of the better reads I’ve ever had in this space, and I really can’t recommend it highly enough. So, with no adieu, we welcome Warren to the show today. A quick disclaimer prior to this episode: As with any cannabis or alcohol products, use in moderation and only if safe to do so. Consult with your physician before taking cannabis. This episode is for entertainment purposes only, we do not give medical advice.
Michael Scott:
Warren, thanks so much for joining us. I mean, high up on the cool factor, I’ve been looking forward to this one.
Todd Sullivan:
Yeah.
Warren Bobrow:
Well, I saw you have a copy of my book in front of you, and I really try to dispel the difficulties that individuals have when they go to doing this art. And it really is an art, it’s not just a craft, and it has to be learned like someone would learn how to cook, for instance, or how to turn on the stove and boil water.
Todd Sullivan:
Right.
Michael Scott:
Right.
Warren Bobrow:
You’d be surprised how many people have never boiled water. They say, “We go out for boiled water,” but it’s the same kind of thing. It’s most easy for you to go to a dispensary and to buy a container of a liquid or get just about anything that you need to get, and I just give you all the tools so you can do it yourself.
Todd Sullivan:
Yeah. So, tell us a little about yourself, because there’s no university class that teaches this, no night education community-
Warren Bobrow:
Well, there should be.
Todd Sullivan:
Yeah, there should be, right?
Warren Bobrow:
There should be.
Michael Scott:
Coming soon.
Warren Bobrow:
There should be because there should be people like myself who want to do thing like this. I mean, I know that there are, they exist.
Todd Sullivan:
So, tell us your story, how did you be… to become the person in the U.S. for cannabis infused drinks? How did that happen? Oh, and you’re also a Forbes contributor, so…
Warren Bobrow:
The way it happened was by osmosis. And it’s an unduplicatable story because it involves a family background in patent pharmaceuticals, which some people have said, so far as them being snake-oil and unsure cures for afflictions that no one really has, but fortunes are made and lost that way and that was my influence. My grandfather manufactured a product called Geritol, some could say it was whiskey, others could say it was for iron-poured blood, it was 50% alcohol. You could say that it was to get a little vim and vigor into your step. I could say that it was no more than ethyl alcohol, caramel coloring, and flavorings. I wrote a book about whiskey so I can tell you that it’s whiskey that you wouldn’t want to drink.
Warren Bobrow:
So, I have this background in the “early apothecary”, if you will, and it’s all tongue-in-cheek, and we have fun. Most the alcoholic recipes that we have come back from New Orleans, in the time of the 1800s, when people would go to a dispensary or an apothecary, there would be a preparatory apothecary, they would make things like aromatic bitters… Like this one, for instance, Peychaud’s bitters. And the reason why it’s dyed that bright red is because you would believe that because it’s red it has very mystical, medicinal qualities and it’s very powerful and it’s going to heal what ails you. It was really invented for dysentery because there was no refrigeration and everyone’s walking around with stomach ailments and you don’t live very long because you have dysentery and it’s an awful way to go. And Peychaud’s, with all these medical seals on it, represents healing.
Warren Bobrow:
So, my influence from it was, I was down at the apothecary museum during Tales of the Cocktail, which is the yearly event that goes on, and it celebrates the American cocktail, and it takes place in New Orleans every year. And I had this book that I wrote called Bitters and Shrub Syrup Cocktails, and it’s a great book because it kind of gives you this view into the early apothecary and healing with shrubs, not shrubberies, but shrubs which are acidulated beverages, vinegar and sugar and fresh fruit and you cook it together and let it sit down in a stoneware container in the basement for a couple of days, until it makes a syrup and then mix cocktails with it. So, when you have lousy liquor and you mix it with this beautiful shrub, it creates something that goes a little further.
Todd Sullivan:
Interesting. Warren-
Warren Bobrow:
Anyway, so my idea was, I was at the Pharmacy Museum and doing my book signing for Bitters and Shrubs, and wouldn’t you know, at the same time as an exhibition at the museum, they’re doing a showing of Cannabis in the Early Apothecary.
Todd Sullivan:
What year was this?
Warren Bobrow:
And I knew I was write about it. Because my first book coincidentally was named Apothecary Cocktails and they sell it at the Pharmacy Museum to this day. They do very nicely with it.
Todd Sullivan:
What year was this?
Warren Bobrow:
Yeah, I’m sorry, what was that?
Todd Sullivan:
What year was this?
Warren Bobrow:
2013.
Todd Sullivan:
Okay, okay.
Warren Bobrow:
Yeah, so it wasn’t that long ago, I mean I had a run-in with real life and for about 20 years I worked in bank, but we don’t tell anyone that.
Michael Scott:
Hey Warren, can you give us some color on your background, because I understand you’ve got a background of using cannabis as a medicine, but then you also have a background in cocktails, right?
Warren Bobrow:
Yes, yes.
Michael Scott:
So, how have you infused these two to become the godfather of cannabis infused drinks here?
Warren Bobrow:
Well, as I said, I wouldn’t go so far as to say that I invested it, although I was the person who wrote the first book and I took the ideas that were really amalgamated in the 1800s. And they were using cannabis in cocktails in New Orleans, we know that they were using cannabis in cocktails in New Orleans as far back in the 1850s. So, the concoctions were not meant to be for pleasure, they were meant to be for gout, they were meant to be for worms, they were meant to be for head lice, they were meant to be a multitude of things. Cocktails evolved from the drinking of tiny little glasses that were dispensed… even smaller than this, dispensed for medicinal purposes.
Michael Scott:
Sure.
Warren Bobrow:
And the only reason why they become something so popular is because they had alcohol in them and alcohol lubricates all social ills. So, I mean, you follow distillation and you follow history. The Chinese were making cannabis infused cocktails 5,000 years ago. We know this because we know history and it’s not a history that I created by any means, but it’s a history that I celebrate. And being a mixologist, or a master mixologist at that, I like taking ingredients and I like using them to take them to the next step to raise the bar, if you will. And if no one else thought of it, that’s their problem. And if they thought of it, great, I celebrate them, I want to see them do well. I love doing well, I’m going to make a beautiful cocktail today. We’re going to have a lot of fun and it’s easy to have a good time. And I think the two words that are missing from most Americans’ dictionary are “common sense”, and you don’t have to drink this much tequila to get the effect that you need out of that much. And it’s a tough game for some people. They think that you have to drink three or four drinks in an hour to have any sort of effect and with cannabis cocktails it’s a completely different game.
Todd Sullivan:
So, talk to me about the whole process. I’m a newbie, never done this before, I go to my local dispensary, I get some cannabis, I want to make a cocktail. What do I have to do and why do I have to do it?
Warren Bobrow:
Well, the first thing you want to do is you want to decarb your cannabis. So, it’s decarboxylate the cannabis. And that turns the molecule of THCA, which is in the inert state, the raw state, it’s already been cured, but it’s not dried. And you want to reveal it into THC, so that happens during heat and time. There’s a number of different methods of doing it, I’ve heard people using a microwave. Fair enough. A couple 30 second blasts. I think three 30 second blasts in a covered container. I would never used aluminum foil, I only use a little paper towel. So, I’ve experimented with that, but it can go wrong very quickly, and you can fry or torch the cannabis, it’ll burst into flames and your expensive investment goes up in smoke.
Michael Scott:
Seriously?
Warren Bobrow:
Yeah, seriously. The other thing that I’ve experimented with, when I wrote Cannabis Cocktails, Mocktails & Tonics, is the sous vide method, boiling it on the stove, and unfortunately it will only get to 212 degrees, because at 212 degrees it doesn’t express the THCA to THC. That happens at about 240 degrees, and then up to about 310. But I really think, 240 is the degree that I use. But, anyway, so the oven is the worst thing, because the oven is going to circulate in temperature 20, 40, 60 degrees at a time. Your toaster oven is not much better. When I wrote the book, I didn’t know about the machine called the Ardent. It came out soon thereafter, after 2015, when I wrote the book. That is a decarb mechanism. It’s a machine, it’s approximately this tall, it fits up to four ounces. You turn on the button and it decarbs the cannabis perfectly, 100% bioavailability. You literally can take the bud once it comes out and eat it and have the same psychoactive effect.
Michael Scott:
Wow. I didn’t realize that.
Warren Bobrow:
So, the only real difficulty that I see at that point is you have your active bud, you have to infuse that now into whatever liquid that you’re interested in infusing. I’ve done cocktail bitters, today we have some beautiful ginger syrup from Pickett’s in Denver, Colorado. This one is hot an spicy. Let me tell you it’s caliente. People do things like they make tinctures, like this The Tears of the Gods, which is extraordinarily bitter and I would never put it in a craft cocktail. But I only brought it down here to demonstrate that you can add THC to a milkshake by adding a tincture, but it’s going to horribly bitter and out of balance. I think my drinks are incredibly well balanced and they deserve a place at your table because they are so delicious.
Michael Scott:
Warren-
Warren Bobrow:
Some of the other things that I’ve infused are craft spirits. This time today, I did not infuse the craft spirits, I left them in their whole state because I wanted to use very little of the cannabis and when you put it in a spirit, it can get destroyed pretty easily and I don’t want that to happen.
Michael Scott:
That was actually my question, Warren. If you could, for the listeners and for myself, my own interest, and Todd’s, how would you describe the difference between the experience of someone that is just having alcohol versus just having a cannabis infused drink, versus one that actually has both, cannabis and alcohol?
Warren Bobrow:
Well, the cannabis and alcohol effect, starting from last to first, is what we call a crossfade. And it’s-
Michael Scott:
That’s the Millennial term that they talk about, right?
Warren Bobrow:
It’s not for everyone.
Michael Scott:
Isn’t that the hot Millennial term, getting “crossfaded”?
Warren Bobrow:
Crossfaded? Yeah, unfortunately it has a bad connotation because it involves those kids that would line up five shots of tequila and take them down, and go smoke a joint and wondering why the room starts spinning around. And that’s not my intent.
Michael Scott:
Right.
Todd Sullivan:
Right.
Warren Bobrow:
I wanted to make something that was potent, but not destructive.
Michael Scott:
Right.
Warren Bobrow:
So, really what has happened here is a crossfade is not the two separate consumed together, what they are is together, consumed together. And they’re created like someone would create soup. A little bit of this, a little bit of that, not all the ingredients in one container at once and then turn up the stove to high and hope for the best. This is finesse, this… I teach you truly to make things from scratch, although getting back to the Ardent, if you’re able to decarb or even the Levo is another machine that I use, and that’s what I used to make this. The Levo decarbs and infuses in the same basket. It’s simple but it only makes about a cup, but that’s enough for most people. The Magical Butter Machine is another thing that’s out there. That makes two cups, you can’t do any less than two cups. I think it’s two to four or two to six cups. It’s a pretty big investment of cannabis, you need an ounce per cup, per 16 fluid ounces. And it’s very interesting how expensive that can get in a Magical Butter Machine. Now, if you have a good source of medical cannabis and your grow limits are over two ounces a month, you can afford to use that machine, but otherwise I recommend the Levo. [crosstalk 00:14:31], I digress.
Michael Scott:
Got it. Now, Warren, would you say that the experience of drinking a few drinks, then smoking a joint, and mixing it that way, is very different than having it mixed in one drink?
Warren Bobrow:
Yeah, absolutely.
Michael Scott:
Okay.
Warren Bobrow:
It’s a totally different effect.
Michael Scott:
Interesting.
Warren Bobrow:
And I don’t recommend the drinking a few drinks and smoking a joint thing. I’ve done it myself and it’s uncomfortable at best. The antidote to that-
Michael Scott:
Those are the times I’ve gotten sick actually.
Warren Bobrow:
… is CBD. But we didn’t know about that when I wrote the book.
Todd Sullivan:
Say that part again? Sorry, I missed the last part.
Warren Bobrow:
The antidote to a THC… when you take too much THC? In a cocktail or a mocktail?
Todd Sullivan:
Yeah?
Warren Bobrow:
Is to counteract it with CBD. That’s why the-
Michael Scott:
I have heard mixed reviews on that. I’ve heard a lot of people say it’s true and I’ve had some people swear that’s total urban legend, but I have-
Warren Bobrow:
No, it actually works.
Michael Scott:
… personally experienced that it does work actually.
Warren Bobrow:
Actually the best way is the most disgusting way. And it’s fresh lemon juice that you drink down. It’s lemon juice from about one or two lemons and then fresh pepper, whole peppercorns chewed up, and then you drink down the lemon juice. And the reason why that works is because of the turpenes in the lemon, the limonene and the peppercorn, I forget what that one is, but they’re very, very similar to the turpenes in most cannabis strains that are out there. And what that does in your body is it counteracts the THC. So, I didn’t make that up, Neil Young did. so, go blame him. [crosstalk 00:16:05].
Michael Scott:
No, I’ve actually heard that. I’ve heard it a number of times and it’s funny that he just said lemon also works like CBD, because we just found out the other day that basically the Chinese are buying orange peels in great volumes because they found out that CBD exists in orange peels.
Todd Sullivan:
Yeah.
Warren Bobrow:
That’s right.
Michael Scott:
So, it’s funny that you’re saying that lemon is basically-
Todd Sullivan:
Must be a citrus thing.
Michael Scott:
It’s a similar thing.
Warren Bobrow:
It’s a citrus thing, yeah.
Todd Sullivan:
Yeah.
Warren Bobrow:
And then another thing I’ll tell you about, we’ll go off on a tangent just for a second, is absinthe. And I infused absinthe in my book because it really is a vilified spirit. People think that if they drink absinthe they’re going to hallucinate, but quite frankly there’s more of the… The active ingredient in wormwood is something called thujone. And there’s more thujone in onion or a glass of orange juice than in an entire bottle of absinthe, that you would never drink, under any circumstances, because the stuff is 160 proof. I mean, it’s seriously strong. But the reason why it’s seriously strong is because the herbs that are involved are handpicked and they need to be preserved at a very high volume alcohol, otherwise they rot. So, it had nothing to do with being hallucinogenic. The only thing hallucinogenic was drinking too much 160 proof spirit.
Michael Scott:
Yeah.
Warren Bobrow:
In New Jersey, you can go out and you can buy it
Michael Scott:
It tastes like lighter fluid.
Warren Bobrow:
… [crosstalk 00:17:29] in the market, and that’s 190 proof.
Michael Scott:
Jesus.
Todd Sullivan:
I’ve never had it, I have no idea.
Warren Bobrow:
And that’s legal but absinthe at 160’s not. Go figure.
Michael Scott:
That’s like 80-
Warren Bobrow:
Well, it’s legal now, but it wasn’t then. So, that’s why I infused it, in my book, with THC, because it’s a bad boy meeting a bad boy.
Michael Scott:
That’s like, you’re going to get one experience with your car with 87 octane and then nitrous. You know what I mean?
Todd Sullivan:
Yeah, exactly.
Michael Scott:
You’re going to notice a difference.
Todd Sullivan:
That’s insane.
Warren Bobrow:
There is a difference. And I always say go to quality. So, use the best quality that you can get. Unfortunately, I didn’t make it… I forgot to make ice last night. And I had frozen pizzas in the ice tray, so it didn’t make much more than that much ice. So, I’ll do what I have to do in small amount and it’ll be just fine. But, in the future, always make sure… There’s a couple of lessons I wanted to teach in the cocktail making. And the first thing is, always use the best ice that you can. And if you have, like last week’s garlic pasta in the refrigerator, get rid of it before you make ice. Because your ice is going to taste like… it’s like an absorbing sponge and it’s going to take in all those flavors from that two week old garlic pasta that’s lurking back there in the outer reaches of your refrigerator. It’s going to make it’s way down through the freezer and into your ice cube tray. So, when I’m making ice cubes for an event, I always put them inside those freezer trays, and freezer bags, because freezer bags actually let moisture out and they allow the ice to get drier, which is really, really important.
Warren Bobrow:
Wet ice makes for a sloppy drink, a wet drink, a diluted drink. That’s why most people have never had a great cocktail, because most bar tenders use those little chips of ice that, when they shake it up really hard, or drink really hard, you taste the little chips of water up on the top of the tense surface. Like, if they’re stupid and they shake a martini, which is just dumb, and you see all those little chips of liquid on the top. That’s just water, and you’re paying for water. Why do you have to pay for water? You’re paying for good liquor. Why muffle it up with water? That’s why I really [inaudible 00:19:43] to put THC in, because it takes you up.
Michael Scott:
Nice.
Todd Sullivan:
All right, so let’s get started making a couple cocktails with the infused stuff here.
Michael Scott:
Todd’s ready to go.
Todd Sullivan:
We have our ingredients that you gave us last week, and we’ve made them.
Warren Bobrow:
That’s great.
Todd Sullivan:
And, let’s get-
Warren Bobrow:
So, am I going to tell you about how to make the ginger syrup? Because I hope so, it’s a lot of fun.
Todd Sullivan:
So, we made the ginger syrup. Can you please tell the listeners how they should make that?
Michael Scott:
The syrup.
Todd Sullivan:
The syrup.
Warren Bobrow:
Did you just shoot the sheriff? But you didn’t get the deputy?
Todd Sullivan:
No.
Michael Scott:
And we got the George Clooney tequila for this, too.
Warren Bobrow:
Well, that’s good.
Todd Sullivan:
We got the mezcal, too.
Warren Bobrow:
I like using these scientific containers because if I forget to bring a measuring vessel-
Todd Sullivan:
Oh, we don’t have one of those.
Warren Bobrow:
… many of them have little lines on the side, so I know-
Michael Scott:
Exactly what you’re getting.
Warren Bobrow:
… how much or how little to use. I would never use this much, it would just be a tiny little bit. But still, it does make a nice impression.
Todd Sullivan:
All right. All right, so let’s-
Warren Bobrow:
Anyway.
Todd Sullivan:
Perfect. Let’s break here and then we’ll change our camera angle with Nate, and so we can all the drinks and we can make it with him.
Warren Bobrow:
That’s awesome.
Todd Sullivan:
Sound good? All right, Nate, what are you thinking? So, we got tequila, bitters, orange juice, and the ginger syrup. That’s everything, right?
Michael Scott:
And do we need a measuring thing?
Todd Sullivan:
Yeah, probably.
Michael Scott:
Because I can just-
Warren Bobrow:
Yeah, let me see. Let me find my orange juice. Did I bring my orange juice?
Michael Scott:
Forgot to measure the syrup.
Todd Sullivan:
Yeah, your syrup.
Warren Bobrow:
Bear with me for a second.
Todd Sullivan:
Yeah, no rush at all Warren, take your time.
Michael Scott:
[crosstalk 00:21:17] to measure? By chance?Speaker 4:
Probably not.
Warren Bobrow:
That’s what I was supposed to bring is orange juice. I’m going to-
Todd Sullivan:
Take a quick look and see.
Warren Bobrow:
I’m going to do orange-like.
Michael Scott:
You’re probably right.
Warren Bobrow:
I’m going to do an orange-like.
Todd Sullivan:
That’s fine.
Michael Scott:
An orange what?
Todd Sullivan:
Orange-like substance.
Warren Bobrow:
Orange-like, not orange juice.
Michael Scott:
Oh, okay.
Warren Bobrow:
Because I thought I was supposed to get it, but I-
Michael Scott:
You got some Tang? Is that what you’re saying? You got some Tang over there Warren?
Warren Bobrow:
No, it’s Real Lemon, I’m going to make it into Real Orange.
Michael Scott:
Remember Tang?
Todd Sullivan:
Yeah, I remember Tang. I used to like it.
Michael Scott:
I used to like it. When we were kids, man, that was popular stuff.
Todd Sullivan:
I think Hi-C put them out of business, right?
Michael Scott:
Probably. Tang.
Warren Bobrow:
This is called being a bartender, and making good. Okay, so I did that. That’s a little bit of concentrate. [crosstalk 00:22:06].
Michael Scott:
Warren, how long did you bartend for?
Warren Bobrow:
I’m going to say it’s fresh juice. Just a little bit of fresh juice. There is it.
Todd Sullivan:
Perfect.
Michael Scott:
Warren, how long did you bartend for?
Warren Bobrow:
I bartended for this little place right there.
Michael Scott:
Oh, yeah. What does it say?
Warren Bobrow:
That’s Employees Only.
Michael Scott:
Wow. Okay.
Todd Sullivan:
All right, so…
Warren Bobrow:
I bartended for the Ryland Inn in Whitehouse, New Jersey, but I’ve worked in a lot of… I’ve bartended in Russia, in Moscow.
Todd Sullivan:
Oh, wow.
Warren Bobrow:
At the top of the FSP building.
Michael Scott:
Did you really?
Warren Bobrow:
Which is, most people have not ever set foot past the front steps. You’d be shot. But, things like that are interesting in life.
Michael Scott:
Nice.
Todd Sullivan:
How did you get that?
Michael Scott:
That’s an experience.
Warren Bobrow:
I was the master mixologist and brand ambassador for Marussia Beverages in Moscow, and their office was at the top of the FSP building.
Michael Scott:
Wow.
Warren Bobrow:
Which is their national security administration building.
Todd Sullivan:
Yeah, yeah.
Michael Scott:
Very cool.
Warren Bobrow:
And when you walk in there’s little gun slots at waist height, every five feet, down this 100 foot corridor which is made of black granite. So, you know that they’re not…. they’re not windows.
Todd Sullivan:
Yeah.
Warren Bobrow:
They were not windows, they were guns slots.
Michael Scott:
What?
Warren Bobrow:
And they’re every five feet for 100 feet, down this black granite corridor, to the elevators at the very end.
Michael Scott:
Wow. Warren, what was it like being the bartender for the Russians, out there at that time?
Warren Bobrow:
Well, I was teaching at the Moscow bar show, so it was… I was making cocktails for those who I have sworn to silence.
Michael Scott:
Got it.
Todd Sullivan:
Good for you, cool.
Michael Scott:
I’m sure you got lots of experiences from that.
Warren Bobrow:
You know what it really was, is an experience into what people really like to drink. And in Moscow, they don’t drink vodka.
Michael Scott:
Really?
Warren Bobrow:
Most of the people I came across were ex-pats anyway. Because the dollar is such at an advantage there, we’ve killed their currency, so there’s a… and now their oil is dead, their currency’s worth absolutely nothing. So, you show up with a $100 bill that’s worth $1,000 or more. I went with $500 and it was like I had over $10,000 in spending. I mean, it was just incredible. I was drinking Salon champagne and eating Iranian caviar and it cost pennies, literally.
Todd Sullivan:
Isn’t that amazing.
Michael Scott:
That is amazing.
Warren Bobrow:
So, all it takes an open mind, and if you like nice things, you know what they are, and you only have a certain amount of time there, I suggest eating and drinking as well as you can. Because there was more Pappy Van Winkle on the shelves there than there was in Louisville, when I was down there.
Michael Scott:
Wow.
Todd Sullivan:
That’s amazing. I would have never in a million years guessed that.
Warren Bobrow:
And it’s all real, it’s not fake. Because these are the wealthiest people in the world, they truly are, and it’s all new money and they want flash. And really what the Russians are drinking, as I said, is not vodka, it’s bourbon, and it’s scotch, they have incredible scotch collections. I’m not a big scotch drinker, but if you’re a scotch drinker, that’s the place to go to get scotch whiskey.
Todd Sullivan:
God, who would have guessed? In a million years, I would have never guessed that.
Warren Bobrow:
Yeah, who would have guessed? Again, we have someone in charge of our country that lives a very flashy life, that’s Moscow, it’s all gold glitz and new money.
Michael Scott:
Awesome.
Todd Sullivan:
Wow.
Warren Bobrow:
If you like that, it’s right up your alley.
Todd Sullivan:
All right, so let’s get stuff. We have our ingredients.
Michael Scott:
Todd’s ready.
Todd Sullivan:
We have our orange juice.
Warren Bobrow:
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Todd Sullivan:
We have our simple syrup that you’re going to tell everyone how we made. We have our bitters.
Warren Bobrow:
Yep.
Todd Sullivan:
We have our glasses, we have our ice.
Michael Scott:
And we have our designated driver.
Todd Sullivan:
Yes, we have Nathan.
Warren Bobrow:
Wonderful.
Todd Sullivan:
And we have two types of tequila. We has mezcal and Casamigos.
Warren Bobrow:
Excellent.
Todd Sullivan:
Casamigos.
Warren Bobrow:
Wonderful. I think the first one we’ll do is the… the tequila one first, because the second one, the mezcal’s smokier and it’ll leave that flavor in your mouth over the tequila, whereas the other way it’ll taste more like bourbon.
Todd Sullivan:
We will leave it to you to guide us.
Warren Bobrow:
Okay.
Michael Scott:
I’m very, very curious, of all the tequilas out there-
Todd Sullivan:
Nate, [crosstalk 00:26:18] big glasses to shake the?
Michael Scott:
… what do you think are the tequilas that are the ones you really want to drink?
Warren Bobrow:
It’s been so long. The one that I always really liked to drink was Casa Noble.
Michael Scott:
Oh, okay.
Warren Bobrow:
Because they aged it in French white oak, as opposed to American bourbon oak.
Michael Scott:
Yeah.
Warren Bobrow:
So, it had a tighter, leaner flavor, especially their Blanco, which I believe was done all in stainless steel and no oak at all, or and if it was, it was just a neutral French oak, French white oak, so like wine.
Michael Scott:
I’ve had the Blanco, I was highly impressed. Yeah.
Warren Bobrow:
What’s that?
Michael Scott:
I actually had the Blanco as a substitute once, and I was blown away.
Warren Bobrow:
Yeah. It’s really nice.
Michael Scott:
And I think it’s pretty well priced, too.
Warren Bobrow:
I mean, I used to do a little work for William Grant, and they have a nice portfolio of tequilas. But everything is just packaging now, it’s not what’s in the bottle. And I think to find something that’s truly esoteric, you have to dig past the big brand stores because they’re going to have fancier [cuvées 00:27:19] but really they’re just side projects of the big players. The place to get artisanal spirits are probably your smaller, local stores, as opposed to the big brand stores. Because, as I said, the big ones are more inclined to get things that only appear to be artisanal out of expensive packaging or fancy corks, or sometimes the tops are really heavy, and you think you’re spending $50 on the top and $5 for the tequila.
Todd Sullivan:
So, earlier you said, you mentioned something about not buying cannabis infused alcohol because the alcohol can destroy the THC content, is that kind of a-
Warren Bobrow:
No, no, I don’t think I said that directly.
Todd Sullivan:
Did I misunderstand.
Warren Bobrow:
There’s really nothing on the market legally that has alcohol and THC together.
Todd Sullivan:
Right. Right.
Warren Bobrow:
And if anything, what it does is it puts the THC into suspension. It’ll last forever. I mean, it’s a preservative. Especially if you’re using something like 100… anything over 100 proof is going to last for months, if not years. If you go to a bar and you see those containers of vodka behind the bar that are infused with cherries and oranges and lemons and apples and whatever, that’s not more than 80 proof, so imagine using something that’s over 100 proof. It’s going to last forever.
Todd Sullivan:
Yeah, right.
Warren Bobrow:
And that’s why bitters are so important, because these are almost 50% alcohol, if not more, and it’s the perfect thing to put THC in because you’re really only putting it in drop by drop.
Todd Sullivan:
Interesting.
Michael Scott:
Right. Warren, what if you took a tincture that you bought at a medical dispensary or adult use dispensary, and just said, “I’m just going to add this to my non-alcoholic or alcoholic drink,” is that a short cut way to doing this?
Warren Bobrow:
It’s a short cut, but it’s a cheat, because it’s going to put the drink out of balance. It’s going to make it bitter. Most tinctures don’t have… it’s just weed and… Like this, I’m not going to say this is a bad one, it’s a pretty good one. But most tinctures are just cannabis and ethyl alcohol, or some type of alcohol. This is a pretty strong one here, it won the Cannabis Cup in 2018.
Michael Scott:
And is that-
Warren Bobrow:
So, I find it to be really off-putting because it’s so bitter.
Michael Scott:
Is that purchased in Colorado?
Warren Bobrow:
This was Las Vegas.
Michael Scott:
Oh, wow.
Todd Sullivan:
So, what you need to do is create the drink around the cannabis so you can add ingredients to the drink to counteract that bitterness or that flavor of the cannabis?
Warren Bobrow:
Yeah, but I wouldn’t use a tincture in the first place because it’s always going to be bitter.
Todd Sullivan:
Okay.
Warren Bobrow:
If I was adding a tincture, I would do it in the sense as, or alongside, cocktail bitters to deepen the… they would add depth and balance to the craft cocktail. But I wouldn’t use it as my base because it would just be so acerbic and off-putting. It would be unpleasant. You’d would be like, “Where’s the beef? It’s one-dimensional, off-putting. What is this guy doing?”
Michael Scott:
What about the flavorless tinctures? What about those flavorless tinctures that are coming out?
Warren Bobrow:
They’re really interesting. They’re really intriguing. In fact, I’m working on one… on a product right now, the technology is called nanotechnology.
Michael Scott:
Right, right.
Warren Bobrow:
So, it’s the THC is in suspension but it’s… the particles are half the size of a human hair if not smaller, so they’re… you can’t see them.
Michael Scott:
Right.
Warren Bobrow:
And there’s no taste, there’s no smell, there’s no color. Mine actually does have taste and smell and color, it’s a nanotechnology of Mango Trainwreck. It has beautiful turpenes and it’s shelf stable so it doesn’t need to be refrigerated and alcohol doesn’t kill it off. But the drink doesn’t have alcohol in it. But I know from experimenting with those ingredients, it makes a good thing even better.
Michael Scott:
Interesting. Wow.
Todd Sullivan:
Perfect. All right, so guide us through one of these beverages.
Warren Bobrow:
Yeah, so I’m going to verbalize the making of the THC infused ginger simple syrup.
Todd Sullivan:
Perfect.
Warren Bobrow:
The one that I used, I think is the best. I mean, it’s available on the market, this ginger syrup. And it’s called Pickett’s and it’s from Denver, Colorado. This is the big bartender size. A normal size is like an eight ounce bottle and I think it makes four or five 750ml bottles of seltzer, or ginger beer soda, in the Soda Stream. But to make ginger syrup, without going out and buying it is very simple. I use a complex sugar, I never use white sugar and I never use brown sugar, because that’s just poisonous. I use a sugar like demerara sugar or turbinado sugar. I could even use coconut sugar, there’s all different types of sugar that you can use, but the ones
Warren Bobrow:
I stay away from are white sugar or brown sugar. It’s a one to one ratio, so it’s one cup of sugar to one cup of distilled water or regular spring water. I try not to use ingredients that will change the flavor of my cocktails when they’re boiled. Tap water has chlorine in it. You may not be able to detect the chlorine when you’re drinking a glass of water, but after it’s been boiled, you’ll probably smell the chlorine because it’s concentrated. So, the water’s not going to be boiling for very long, but it’s long enough to make bad water smell really bad.
Warren Bobrow:
So, I use a one to one ratio, one cup of sugar to one cup of good water. You simmer them together until the sugar dissolves. You can cook it longer to make caramel, or you can cook it longer to give it the approximate color that you’re looking for. This shade is pretty easy to get to, that’ll take about a half hour or so, at a very, very slow simmer, not more than 160 degrees. There’s another thing that we’re missing is the… after you make the simple syrup, you take a big nob of ginger and peel the rough coating off the outside of it and plop it right into the container and let it sit overnight in the refrigerator. And then come the next morning, you have ginger simple syrup. Very, very easy.
Todd Sullivan:
Perfect.
Warren Bobrow:
One of the easiest things I know how to do. Nothing too scientific about it. You’ll want to strain out the ginger nob after you’ve made your syrup. It’ll stay fresh in the refrigerator for about a week. The commercial brands, like this one, will stay in the refrigerator indefinitely. Not that it has anything desperately wrong in it, but it has… it’s already been boiled and everything is sterile inside there.
Todd Sullivan:
So, we made the sugar and we used your demarose sugar, and Poland spring water.
Warren Bobrow:
You used the demerara? Okay.
Todd Sullivan:
We did. We did. And we used the Poland spring water.
Warren Bobrow:
And how much cannabis did you use?
Todd Sullivan:
An ounce, I think.
Warren Bobrow:
Oh, that’s very good. And how much fluid?
Todd Sullivan:
We had to use the two cups.
Warren Bobrow:
Okay. So, you used two cups because the Magical Butter Machine.
Todd Sullivan:
Yeah, we used two to two.
Warren Bobrow:
I think that’s fantastic. So, you’re going to have a pretty potent drink. So, the amount of cannabis that you used is… the ratio that I like to use is one ounce per cup.
Todd Sullivan:
Okay.
Warren Bobrow:
You used one ounce per two cups, but that’s fine. One ounce per cup for medical use, because you want to get more of that THC into the syrup because you’re not really using that much of it, so it’ll probably be… I don’t know, I don’t know the math, but I think it’s going to be about 20 to 30mgs per cocktail it works out to be.
Todd Sullivan:
Oh, wow.
Michael Scott:
Okay.
Warren Bobrow:
So, it’s not overpowering but it has a little kick, too. I did some drinks on Vice that were around $250 an ounce.
Todd Sullivan:
It’ll let you know it’s [crosstalk 00:35:45].
Michael Scott:
To any listeners, this it not for the inexperienced cannabis consumer, let me just put that out there, because-
Warren Bobrow:
No it’s not, but it’s-
Michael Scott:
20 to 30mgs that’s for a-
Warren Bobrow:
But no one said that you had to drink all the drinks at once. You make one drink, you don’t have to finish it. You can let it-
Michael Scott:
True.
Warren Bobrow:
You take a sip and see how you feel. It’s like Thai food, you go out to a Thai restaurant and they say, “How spicy do you want it?” If it’s the first time you’re at a Thai restaurant, you probably don’t want to order a five star or beyond, Thai spicy, but you might want to have it a little bit spicy. So, cannabis cocktails are the same thing.
Michael Scott:
Yeah, I’m going to just express, once again, if you’re not experienced and you’re listening, go slow, wait an hour, wait an hour and a half, and then try a little more. But just, respect the drink, for sure.
Warren Bobrow:
Yeah.
Todd Sullivan:
That Thai food, that’s a great analogy.
Warren Bobrow:
So, assuming that this has been… How do you get the cannabis THC into the syrup is probably a question that people ask. And I have an answer for that. Because I use the Levo, it is technology, but I can tell you that if you do everything in a double boiler, it works just as nicely. And I’m trained as a saucier, so I want to teach you how to do it from scratch, not just plug into a machine and hit start. That’s nice, but I want you to know how to do things from scratch. And the infusion of your simple syrup, now ginger syrup, with THC can be done a number of ways. You’ve done it the way with the Magical Butter Machine, I do it the way with the Levo. Someone who doesn’t want to go out and spend 200 and some odd dollars can do it in a double boiler.
Warren Bobrow:
You would take your non-cannabis infused syrup, right now it’s just a ginger simple syrup and it goes into a double boiler, which is simmering at 160 degrees. And then to that you add that ounce of cannabis that you’ve put in a cheesecloth wrapper, and you close it up and it’s… because it was in the Magical Butter Machine, it’s going to be… I have to pull back from that for a second because my brain’s getting confused. If you’re not doing the Magical Butter Machine, and we’re infusing the cannabis in, we have to just take the whole buds, grind them down to a nice loose consistency, put them in cheesecloth, tie the two ends, place it into the ginger syrup and let that simmer for approximately two hours at 160 degrees. That’s what I’m looking for.
Todd Sullivan:
Okay.
Warren Bobrow:
So, at the end of two hours, you remove the cannabis packet, strain it out really well, I recommend wearing rubber gloves, because you’ll get super stoned if you don’t and then let it cool.
Todd Sullivan:
Is that we got to decarb the cannabis first, then put it in cheesecloth?
Warren Bobrow:
Right, when the cannabis is decarbed.
Todd Sullivan:
Right, okay.
Warren Bobrow:
Okay the cannabis is decarbed to 240 degrees for 45 minutes.
Todd Sullivan:
Gotcha.
Michael Scott:
And that’s always step one, even before it goes into the Magic Butter Machine, correct?
Warren Bobrow:
Even before. Because the Magical Butter Machine does not decarb.
Michael Scott:
Got it. It’s surprising, you would think-
Warren Bobrow:
The first incarnation did, but not the subsequent ones.
Michael Scott:
Yeah, so the one that we have is the Magic Butter Machine 2. And I was kind of surprised.
Warren Bobrow:
Yeah, I used to have one of those.
Michael Scott:
I was surprised that it didn’t do that.
Warren Bobrow:
And they don’t really instruct you in the instructions that that’s what you’re supposed to do.
Michael Scott:
They don’t.
Todd Sullivan:
No.
Michael Scott:
They really don’t.
Todd Sullivan:
Just throw everything in and hit play.
Michael Scott:
Yeah.
Warren Bobrow:
Yeah essentially the recipes become flawed. Another thing that I do in my cream based drinks, when I do THC infused condensed milk, is I add lecithin, soy lecithin, and that super charges the THC. Making it even more potent and exciting.
Todd Sullivan:
Why does that react that way?
Warren Bobrow:
It’s brain food. It’s a complex fat and the THC bonds to it like nobody’s business. And it makes the THC really super potent.
Todd Sullivan:
Wow, it’s like a chemistry class.
Warren Bobrow:
We call it supercharges.
Todd Sullivan:
That’s amazing.
Michael Scott:
No idea, very cool.
Warren Bobrow:
It’s like it makes it go from “Wow,” to, “Wow!”
Todd Sullivan:
Do you know how many kids in high school’d pay attention to chemistry if this is what they were teaching? You wouldn’t get any kids skipping classes.
Warren Bobrow:
I really wasn’t paying attention. I kind of liked shop class and I liked carpentry. I can see all the scars from the X-Acto knives. But I wasn’t really paying attention in science class until someone gave me a pot brownie, I think I was about 15 years old, and ever since then, it’s been picking mushrooms out in the woods and… No, I didn’t.
Todd Sullivan:
All right, so-
Warren Bobrow:
Anyway, so finesse. Finesse is very important. Having a clean area to work on is very important, you can’t quite see what’s down below, but when I work, I’m going to try to work up high, so you can see what’s going on. I think it’s really important to have clean glassware. I think it’s really important to have good ice. I think it’s really important to have good ingredients. That, I can’t stress enough. When you have THC infused ingredients, make sure you label them. It’s just my wife and I so I know she’s not going near that. But if you have kiddies around the house, you may want to put do not touch, whatever, poison or something, because all I can say is there’s enough to make probably… I don’t know, 50 drinks here. Of mind-boggling proportions, and you probably wouldn’t want to take too much.
Michael Scott:
Exactly.
Warren Bobrow:
That’s why I would say mark your stuff well.
Michael Scott:
Good cautionary notes for the listeners.
Warren Bobrow:
Use caution, use small amounts. You can have more, never less. So, anyway, so you guys going to start out? The decarb and infusion is the most important thing, getting the THC inside the simple syrup and then you just build your cocktail the way that you know how. And I’ll show you.
Todd Sullivan:
Okay. perfect. Perfect.
Warren Bobrow:
It’s easy.
Michael Scott:
Nice.
Warren Bobrow:
So, I’ll start.
Michael Scott:
Yep.
Warren Bobrow:
I’ve got a little bit of orange and I’m going to add that to-
Michael Scott:
Is that lemon or orange?
Todd Sullivan:
He doesn’t have orange juice.
Michael Scott:
Oh, okay, that’s orange that’s right.
Todd Sullivan:
So, how much are we adding?
Speaker 4:
[crosstalk 00:42:20].Warren Bobrow:
Oh, I don’t know, I’d say… because this is just for me, I would say an ounce and a half. Then I’m going to use about an ounce of simple. The ginger simple syrup, with the THC. And then we have a Blanco tequila. I’m going to use about three ounces of that. Because I want to get wasted.
Michael Scott:
The Blanco. Close enough.
Warren Bobrow:
And then I’m going to cap it up and give it a little pop.
Michael Scott:
I need a spoon, can you grab a spoon, Nate? Oh, thank you.
Warren Bobrow:
And you shake it up.
Michael Scott:
Our measuring device is-
Warren Bobrow:
Do you have a [inaudible 00:43:03]?
Todd Sullivan:
Say again?
Speaker 4:
[inaudible 00:43:09].Warren Bobrow:
Do you ever go to the bar and they make a shaken cocktail, they go like this, they cap it and they go like this.
Michael Scott:
Yeah.
Warren Bobrow:
And then they pour your drink. Ever had that happen?
Michael Scott:
Yep.
Todd Sullivan:
Yes.
Warren Bobrow:
Leave.
Todd Sullivan:
So, do you have ice in there right now?
Warren Bobrow:
Well, and the other thing is, if you go to a bar and they don’t put a glass of water down in front of you before you’ve ordered, leave.
Michael Scott:
Warren is a purist. [inaudible 00:43:43].
Todd Sullivan:
Oh, he does have ice in there.
Michael Scott:
Yep.
Warren Bobrow:
That’s about good.
Michael Scott:
And Warren-
Warren Bobrow:
Oh, yeah, that’s beautiful. This is magnificent. So, there’s the cocktail.
Michael Scott:
Our shake is done.
Warren Bobrow:
And then I’m going to add some orange bitters to it.
Todd Sullivan:
[crosstalk 00:44:03].Warren Bobrow:
I’ll lift it up again so can see me do that.
Todd Sullivan:
How much bitters are you adding?
Warren Bobrow:
Just like two or three drops.
Michael Scott:
Two or three drops.
Warren Bobrow:
And then I’m going to add a little Peychaud bitters, because I believe this is for healing. You know ginger was used to heal the gut-
Michael Scott:
Do I do that before?
Todd Sullivan:
After.
Warren Bobrow:
… but Peychaud’s was really used to heal your lower gut. Because when you had a really bad, bad, bad case of dysentery, and you knew you were going to die, you would go to your pharmacist and then would say, “I need those Peychaud bitters for my gut.” And here they are. You just can’t put too much of them on there.
Todd Sullivan:
So, how’s our color look?
Warren Bobrow:
Yeah, that looks good. This is delicious.
Todd Sullivan:
Let’s give it a shot.
Warren Bobrow:
How’s that taste?
Todd Sullivan:
Wow. My God that’s smooth.
Michael Scott:
It’s really good.
Todd Sullivan:
It literally takes like-
Warren Bobrow:
It better be, I dol you what to do.
Michael Scott:
Wow. That’s a drink that rivals any alcoholic drink, for sure.
Todd Sullivan:
That’s incredible.
Warren Bobrow:
Isn’t that delicious? It’s so simple.
Todd Sullivan:
Wow. That’s dangerous. That tastes so good you could just-
Warren Bobrow:
And you don’t taste the alcohol at all.
Todd Sullivan:
No. Actually, all I taste is orange juice.
Warren Bobrow:
You could drink like 10 of them and you wouldn’t know it.
Michael Scott:
Wow, this could be dangerous.
Todd Sullivan:
Yes. Imagine that on a hot summer day, sitting outside. That’s amazing, Warren.
Warren Bobrow:
Yeah, you never want to have more than three per hour.
Michael Scott:
Okay, well I mean, especially if you’re talking about 20, 30mgs a drink. I mean…
Todd Sullivan:
Yeah.
Warren Bobrow:
I have a slightly higher comparison ratio there.
Michael Scott:
Yeah, I think anybody that’s got a medical cannabis card is going to just have a natural higher tolerance. Because the thing about cannabis, a lot of people don’t realize is, you’re going to build up a tolerance. And it’s more significant than alcohol, too. So, for some who’s-
Warren Bobrow:
Oh, it certainly is. Yeah. And as I said, I didn’t write my book for recreational purposes, I wrote it for medicinal purposes. So, it’s really important to understand that if you want to destroy everyone in your neighborhood, get my book. And if you want to have a good medicinal reason for having it, get my book.
Michael Scott:
Right.
Todd Sullivan:
Okay.
Michael Scott:
Wow, it’s really good.
Warren Bobrow:
So, the second drink is with mezcal, and the reason I like mezcal is because it’s quite mysterious, it has mysterious properties to it. And some of those properties are evoked through incantation, through mysticism, through down right witchcraft. You’re not quite sure what they’re talking about. But they make much less mezcal than they do tequila because it’s a much more time consuming art. There’s heat involved, there’s fire involved, there’s aging, much more aging involved. And there’s smoke. The drinking of mezcal reminds me of drinking scotch whiskey that’s spent time in a tequila cask. And that is possible as well, because after they use those rum casks to… one time to make bourbon whiskey, and then they make rum, and then they make tequila and then the go to Scotland to do the whiskey, and mezcal is that amalgamation of all those flavors together with that tequila undertone. But mezcal has all that smoke and char and fire.
Todd Sullivan:
Big time.
Warren Bobrow:
There’s one called Pechuga which I was going to recommend that you try to get a bottle of. Pechuga is made… they suspend a chicken breast-
Michael Scott:
What did we get?
Warren Bobrow:
… over the simmering wart, if you will, the agave that’s boiling in a big pot and they use natural yeast and the chicken drips its juices into the distillate, which is then… Well, it’s not a distillate yet, but it’s like a soup, but then it goes and becomes distilled. And the gas that’s captured is your mezcal.
Todd Sullivan:
Wow.
Warren Bobrow:
Did I do that right? I think so.
Todd Sullivan:
So, that mezcal actually has chicken stuff in it?
Warren Bobrow:
It has chicken droppings… drippings in it, yeah. Pechuga.
Todd Sullivan:
I would have never known.
Warren Bobrow:
It will run you about 100 bucks a bottle.
Todd Sullivan:
100 bucks a bottle for chicken drippings.
Michael Scott:
I knew I didn’t like mezcal for a reason.
Warren Bobrow:
It’s crazy, it’s crazy stuff. It really is crazy. It’s full of smoke and char and oil and fat and 100 proof spirits and you pour yourself a glass, these little ceramic glasses, and you throw the first one on the ground to evoke the spirits. [crosstalk 00:49:03].
Todd Sullivan:
Wow. All right, so let’s… What do we do with that one then?
Warren Bobrow:
So, with this one we’re going to use come clean ice, and I’m going to first start with some mezcal and I’m going to use… this one I’m going to use about three ounces of mezcal. Because I want it to be really, really assertive.
Todd Sullivan:
Three ounces?
Warren Bobrow:
Three ounces of mezcal. And then this one I’m going to add my orange bitters right into the mix. So, I’m going to add about 10 shakes of orange bitters, so it’s going to have a really orangy flavor. Maybe 10 or 20… any bitters that you have.
Michael Scott:
Now, Warren, is it shakes or drops?
Todd Sullivan:
Drops.
Warren Bobrow:
If you don’t have orange bitters, it’s fine, but I used orange bitters.
Michael Scott:
Shakes or drops, Warren?
Warren Bobrow:
Shakes.
Michael Scott:
One, two, three, four, five, six, seven-
Warren Bobrow:
Don’t count it. Just…
Michael Scott:
There we go.
Todd Sullivan:
Perfect. All right we did about 12 shakes.
Warren Bobrow:
Okay, good.
Todd Sullivan:
It looks like this.
Warren Bobrow:
That’s perfect. Then we’re going to add the orange component.
Todd Sullivan:
How much?
Warren Bobrow:
I’d say, in my case, probably an ounce. Now, I’m going to add two ounces of the THC infused ginger, which I can tell you is quite potent. Wow. There we go. So, going to cap this up, and shake it up. And there we go.
Michael Scott:
Mezcal.
Todd Sullivan:
I know, I’m so excited about this fucking mezcal drink.
Warren Bobrow:
This has a beautiful orange bouquet. That aroma, that’s coming up. Look how gorgeous that is. Nice foam on top.
Todd Sullivan:
So, how’s that look? Right coloring?
Warren Bobrow:
Great coloring. I’m going to add a little bit of the Peychaud’s again to it.
Michael Scott:
The mezcal’s overpowering. Wow.
Warren Bobrow:
I love the Peychaud’s, it adds that shock of red. It’s going to kind of float up on top. Wish you could see that but-
Todd Sullivan:
Yeah, it’s coming through.
Warren Bobrow:
… it kind of floats up on top of the white foam and it adds a little bit of that absinthe licoricey flavor and aroma. That’s like a refreshing ginger lemonade with… or orangeade with a little bit of that Peychaud’s absinthe flavored bitters and the orange and all the mezcal, the smoke, it just comes together, it’s perfect.
Todd Sullivan:
That is delicious. I don’t normally like mezcal, but everything in there… The smoke actually enhances the other flavors I think.
Warren Bobrow:
It does and the effect will give you some nice buzz too pretty soon. I would say in the next three to five minutes you’ll be laughing and giggling.
Todd Sullivan:
It’s incredible, the difference. There’s something here as an industry right? I mean, where do you-
Warren Bobrow:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, it’s not just one guy making drinks in this bar.
Todd Sullivan:
If you flash forward a couple years… and maybe some states are already there. We’re in Massachusetts, which is in its infancy as far as cannabis goes. I’m sure Colorado, Oregon, California are farther ahead of us, but where do you see this industry going?
Warren Bobrow:
I see it taking over the beverage community. I mean, that’s who we’re really looking for. We want to see beverages that are less sweet. We want to see things that are… that are authentic, that have nice flavor balance, that are not complicated to make. I like the idea that my drinks can be enjoyed anyplace and not necessarily in a bar because if they have alcohol, they’re not going to have THC the way the laws are now.
Todd Sullivan:
Yeah, you know-
Warren Bobrow:
And certainly I don’t know what’s going on up there in Boston, but I don’t see canned beverages with THC in them outside of the dispensary system that you have. But fast forward to legalization, maybe that will be possible. But right now alas, no.
Michael Scott:
Yeah, I’m curious your take on that Warren, because I think your opening statement was, these cannabis drinks are going to take over. I too, am a… number one, believe they’re going to be popular, right? Because just my belief is somebody that’s consuming cannabis versus someone that consumes alcohol regularly, it’s just much better for your body, it’s much better for a whole host of reasons. And so I do think there’ll be a time where we can be at a restaurant or a bar and we can pick the alcohol, the tequila, or the cannabis infused drink. From your perspective, having experienced both, being this… a guy with a great background as it relates to the alcohol side of cocktails, why do you think cannabis infused drinks are going to be so big comparative to alcohol?
Warren Bobrow:
Well, they represent a shot across the bow for alcohol because you can drink… take away the mezcal and the tequila in the ones that we made, purely a mocktail. Hangovers are a thing of the past. What is in there that would get you a hand over? Nothing. THC doesn’t give you a hang over, CBD to a certain extent does. The big fallacy is that with CBD cocktails that it does anything, it really doesn’t. CBD is negated by alcohol, it doesn’t bring it up. So, it doesn’t amplify it. But the conversation around authenticity has to change and the expectation of the consumer has to be taught, and it’s not like buying a soda in a convenience store that has a cannabis leaf on it and your perception is that cannabis leaf means I’m going to get high, even though there’s no THC in it, but your visual perception is cannabis leaf, stoned.
Michael Scott:
Right.
Warren Bobrow:
So, products like the humble vodka, there’s a vodka out there that’s a hemp vodka and it’s emblazoned all across the label with cannabis leaves, and your expectation is that you’re going to get high. But it’s never going to happen because it’s not THC, it’s hemp.
Michael Scott:
Right, it’s hemp. Yeah.
Warren Bobrow:
And therefore it has no psychoactive properties. But, perception by the consumer is psychoactive because they see those leaves and immediately it’s, “I’m going to get high.” It’s just not that way. So, we have to change that perception and that dialogue.
Michael Scott:
Sure. Sure.
Warren Bobrow:
So, and then then my anticipation in this is to make drinks that are less sweet. I think tangy should fill the bill. Because it’s going to make you want to have more than one.
Michael Scott:
Yeah.
Warren Bobrow:
It’s nice that we make drinks now that… Something I learned in Russia was that most of the drinks when you go out to a bar are just incredibly sweet. I can never imagine having more than one, but they’re having five, 10, 20, they must have monumental hangovers because of all the sugar. I don’t make drinks that way. And when I made drinks for the Russians with the rum that I was using that doesn’t have any caramel coloring or flavorings added, or any sugar added, and I did make it with the ginger beer and it is a syrup, but it’s not a sweet syrup, it’s a tangy syrup, the perception back to me was, “What’s the matter with this drink? It’s not sweet.” I think it’s really important to change the way America drinks and get away from sweetness and into balance.
Michael Scott:
Warren, do you think that when it comes to not having to use as much sugar, alcohol almost kind of forces that because of what you have to overcome with that raw alcohol flavor? Versus I’m going to guess cannabis you don’t have as much of that to overcome. I wonder if there’s an element of that?
Warren Bobrow:
Well, actually there’s two schools of thought. The first school of thought is a cannabis beverage that tastes like and smells like cannabis. The other school of thought was one that we touched on as the flavorless, colorless THC that you add to a drink and so be it via a glass of beer or a glass of wine or whatever, you’re suddenly putting THC in it, but since it has no scent, it has no flavor, it has no color, you don’t know it’s in there. I don’t do drinks that way. Cannabis for me is part and parcel of the entire experience.
Michael Scott:
Right.
Warren Bobrow:
The quality of the cannabis that you use, if you’re preparing it carefully, those aromas, those turpenes are going to be exemplified and they’re going to add to the depth and balance of your cocktail. Each strain has a different aroma. Each strain has a different flavor, as it has a different effect, as it has a different motion within your own body. And every single person is different. So, what affects me may not affect you. And then you, Todd, might take that drink and one sip and get completely obliterated but Nate, your sitting right next to him saying, “Where’s the beef?”
Michael Scott:
Right.
Warren Bobrow:
It all depends on what’s in your gut. I always say don’t drink a cannabis cocktail on an empty stomach because it’s going to pass through your liver and into your intestine and other places and you’re either going to pee it out or whatever else, you’re not going to get it. It’s going to go right through your body and you’re not going to get high at all. It’s very important to eat a full meal before you imbibe any sort of cannabis edible or beverage. Because your liver will be kept busy and it’ll bypass the liver… I’m not a doctor but this is at least what my science class told me. It bypasses the liver and goes into your bloodstream. The other thing that happens is when you use alcohol in the cannabis cocktails is the capillaries in your bloodstream open up for the alcohol and the THC pours right in.
Michael Scott:
Oh, interesting. I didn’t know that.
Warren Bobrow:
That’s why you get the crossfade.
Todd Sullivan:
That’s amazing.
Michael Scott:
Wow.
Todd Sullivan:
We absolutely, without question need to do this again down the road.
Warren Bobrow:
I’m [crosstalk 00:59:49].
Todd Sullivan:
Aside from the delicious drinks, I think I’ve learned more today just on the science on it and everything like that. I feel like we could go on for hours, just asking questions and I’m doubting Warren has [crosstalk 01:00:02].
Michael Scott:
I mean, this is really a whole new spectrum.
Todd Sullivan:
It really is. It’s like-
Michael Scott:
These drinks… I really feel like even in the medical and adult use cannabis dispensary space, consumers are only now starting to figure that out. And here on the East Coast, I will tell you Warren, it’s just not like Colorado or California, I’m going to say 75% of the dispensaries out here still don’t even have drinks in their dispensaries.
Warren Bobrow:
No, they’re not allowed. It’s beyond their charter.
Michael Scott:
Well, they’re allowed in the dispensaries here, it’s just… I feel like the infrastructure is just now starting to actually take hold to actually get that stuff out.
Warren Bobrow:
But it’s also the technology because my process doesn’t require refrigeration. Most of the products on the market require refrigeration and that means that the beverage manufacturer has to supply the refrigerator. And that’s a big expense. So, if you’re in 300 dispensaries in California and you have to supply a refrigerator to 300 dispensaries and you’re having dinner with your wife in San Francisco and someone calls you on New Year’s Eve from San Diego, “My refrigerator’s gone bad, I need you to come here right away and fix it for me,” what are you going to do? So, that’s why I have a shelf stable product. But most, I’d say 99% of the products on the market are not shelf stable. They require refrigeration so that’s been a… an impediment to the beverages coming out onto the market. There are very, very few, if any, that… I think Cann is one of the only ones, maybe Tingle, a handful of others are shelf stable.
Todd Sullivan:
Wow. The amount of education that’s needed in this space, up and down from companies to consumers to regulators to everything is just staggering how much lack of knowledge and just even misinformation is out there.
Michael Scott:
Totally.
Todd Sullivan:
And then every time you peel the onion back-
Warren Bobrow:
Well, and sugary sweet drinks. I mean, I go to Hall of Flowers or The Emerald Cup and I tasted many of the competition, if you will, for my product class [inaudible 01:02:13] and when I spoke at the Cannabis Drinks Expo in San Francisco, South San Francisco, two years ago, last year, whatever, I prefaced it by saying cannabis drinks suck. Because cannabis drinks do suck. Because they’re uncertain fruit punches or beer flavored seltzers and if I wanted to drink a beer flavored seltzer I’m going to drink a beer, if I’m going to drink a seltzer I’m going to drink a seltzer. I don’t care entirely for seltzer other than on my dinner table and when I drink a beer I don’t want it to taste like air. And that’s what that product is. Some of them, like the Reef Cola, is an amazing product. It is. But I don’t want to drink cola at every meal. I want something that really speaks for craft.
Michael Scott:
Warren, have you had either the Lagunitas infused beer drink that they have… they’re not calling a beer drink. I’m curious if you’ve had that or the… I think they call it Two Roots out in California?
Warren Bobrow:
Yeah, I’ve had both of them and I want to say that I’ve written about… I think I’ve written about both of them. I’m not quite sure. I don’t want to say too much because they are my competition so I don’t want to appear to be overly intense upon them, but I think that those drinks need work and I… especially the Lagunitas. Because I had anticipated it to be a de-alcoholized beer with THC. When I drank it, it was seltzer with a tiny little… it had no hop flavoring whatsoever.
Michael Scott:
Right.
Warren Bobrow:
And the tiny little amount of THC that it had in it, it put me to sleep. It didn’t give me any real feeling at all. I wasn’t very impressed by it. The Two Roots product on the other side, I think it’s viable. I like it. I think it’s tasty. Good luck getting it here on the East Coast.
Michael Scott:
Right.
Warren Bobrow:
So, I haven’t had a whole… I’ve tried it once. And it didn’t leave me with that memorable factor, but it wasn’t bad either.
Michael Scott:
Right, right. I’m really curious how the regulations are going to play out here. Because right now the sale of anything mixing alcohol and cannabis is strictly prohibited but-
Warren Bobrow:
Well it is prohibited. You’ll run into a world of trouble with the TTB. And they-
Michael Scott:
Exactly. It’s strictly prohibited-
Warren Bobrow:
They play for keeps. That’s the old Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.
Michael Scott:
Right.
Warren Bobrow:
And they lumped them all together for a reason. So, I just like to keep clear of them anyway.
Michael Scott:
Absolutely, so-
Warren Bobrow:
And even when I worked in craft spirits, especially then, because that’s taxation issue. So, [crosstalk 01:05:06].
Michael Scott:
Yeah, I just don’t see sale of an alcohol and cannabis infused drink anytime soon, but I do think it’s a matter of time.
Warren Bobrow:
But you have my book.
Michael Scott:
Exactly, we’ve got the book.
Warren Bobrow:
I said you have my book, that’s pretty basic.
Michael Scott:
But I didn’t see as the regulations open up, as indoor consumption gets figured out, it’s going to be some of these states, it’s probably going to be either Nevada, California, or Massachusetts, one of these states is going to be first to have indoor consumption and it’s going to be interesting. It’s kind of like a social experiment. Because here’s my belief Warren, you go to a cookout and you show up with your beer at the cookout, and you’re like everybody else. Okay, no problem.
Warren Bobrow:
Well, that was the idea. You are like everyone else, you can drink with everyone else.
Michael Scott:
Right. And this is my point, you go to a cookout, you pull out your joint and all of a sudden people are like, “What the heck, Todd shows up, he’s lighting a joint?”
Warren Bobrow:
That’s exactly right.
Michael Scott:
Now, here’s been my experience. You show up with a THC infused alcohol… THC infused non-alcoholic beverage, you’re all the sudden the cool kid at the cookout.
Warren Bobrow:
Right.
Michael Scott:
Really and truly. Because people are like, “Wait a minute, it’s not a beer. It’s not that, but it tastes like a beer?”
Warren Bobrow:
What is it?
Michael Scott:
It’s very intriguing to people. Very intriguing to people. And I have another thought. Your experience about the dosing of Two Roots, I think that you got your medical card holders, your long time cannabis consumers, they’re going to want a much higher dose of THC. However, when you look at the masses of new consumers who are coming out, I would actually say 5mg is really about where you want to be because it helps them figure out and balance out, okay that’s a good entry point, whereas you get somebody down in the 30mg beer or drink, I got to tell you, it’s going to be a bad night for them.
Todd Sullivan:
Lights out. Lights out.
Michael Scott:
It’s going to be a bad night.
Warren Bobrow:
Well, it might be an experience that they didn’t bargain for. [crosstalk 01:07:10].
Michael Scott:
Exactly right. Exactly right.
Warren Bobrow:
It’s like that [inaudible 01:07:12].
Michael Scott:
Right.
Todd Sullivan:
So, how do-
Warren Bobrow:
It’s an experience they just didn’t expect.
Todd Sullivan:
Yeah.
Michael Scott:
Right.
Todd Sullivan:
So, tell everybody out there, how does someone follow you? How do they latch on to the Warren band wagon?
Warren Bobrow:
They can look at my website, Todd. They can look at my website, excuse me, cocktailwhisperer.com, that’s a good place to see. They can look at my Forbes page in Forbes Vices.
Todd Sullivan:
Yeah.
Warren Bobrow:
Search under my name Warren Bobrow. B-O-B-R-O-W. The other ways, they can find me on Instagram it’s just my name Warren Bobrow, or on Twitter with a number one because someone stole my name.
Michael Scott:
Really?
Warren Bobrow:
That wasn’t nice.
Todd Sullivan:
You mean they stole it to squat on?
Warren Bobrow:
And they complained to Twitter that I stole their name because they have a PhD and I don’t.
Todd Sullivan:
Oh my God.
Michael Scott:
Oh my goodness.
Warren Bobrow:
Yeah. So, Warren Bobrow on Twitter is not me.
Michael Scott:
All right.
Warren Bobrow:
It’s an interloper.
Michael Scott:
But Warren this book-
Warren Bobrow:
The other Warren Bobrow is from Los Angeles but he’s not me.
Michael Scott:
This book is on Amazon-
Todd Sullivan:
Amazon.
Michael Scott:
… correct?
Warren Bobrow:
Yes, on Amazon. I think they get their supply on the 3rd. I think I’m on the ninth printing. Barnes & Nobel has it, independent bookstores almost all over the world. Someone I know in Australia got a copy recently. I know they have it in Canada. I know it’s in Germany. I know it’s in Denmark. I know it’s in Holland. I sent a copy to someone down in Ecuador, so I know they have it there. It’s all over.
Todd Sullivan:
So, yeah, in my opinion if you’re at home and you want to make cannabis cocktails, this is really required reading so that you do it right. You don’t want to make a cannabis infused cocktail and have all your guests asleep in 20 minutes because you messed up dosing and you put too much in. So, if you want to do this at home, buy Warren’s book. It walks your through step by step decarbing the cannabis, infusing with whatever you’re going to infuse it with, how to dose, how to it. It’s just… I learned so much it was amazing.
Michael Scott:
And this is like, when you look at the recipes, I mean-
Todd Sullivan:
They’re simple.
Michael Scott:
… you’re not just talking about basic recipes, you got some really cool recipes in here.
Todd Sullivan:
Yeah.
Michael Scott:
Like stuff infused with coffee. I mean it’s just some really cool and interesting mixes with these recipes. Very intriguing.
Warren Bobrow:
And if you like Manhattans like I do, I would say try the green cocktail cherry recipe. So, you learn how to make cannabis infused cocktail cherries and they’re the Luxardo cherries, you know those really nice, sumptuous sweet ones from Italy. So, I teach you to infuse those with THC and your Manhattans will never be the same.
Todd Sullivan:
That’s awesome. Well, I can’t thank you enough for agreeing to come on. This has been, by far, my favorite podcast and I learned so much just reading your book and just listening to you today. We absolutely have to do this again in the future.
Michael Scott:
For sure.
Todd Sullivan:
Yeah, I’m sure the space is going to evolve and there’s no doubt in my mind you’ll have new recipes coming out, you’re going to want to share with everybody.
Michael Scott:
Without a doubt. And Warren, with you being a pioneer in this space, I’m going to guess that the demand for you, whether it be on podcasts like this, radio-
Todd Sullivan:
Just events. Events.
Michael Scott:
… events, I mean you just spoke at Benzinga, I mean is your… are you starting to get more and more inquiries?
Warren Bobrow:
I’m getting busy. I embrace it. Not always. This morning I was saying, “Why can’t I do all this on email?”
Michael Scott:
And can I just say… Hey, Warren-
Warren Bobrow:
I’m busier, the world has changed in the last months and I want to remain cognizant of that and say that at some point I hope to be able to share my talent face to face, rather than through a Zoom event. But for the time being, it seems to work and if you follow directions, you should be okay. And if not, get in touch with me and I’ll walk you through it.
Todd Sullivan:
Yeah, I found the instructions… I mean, yeah, they’re very easy to follow along, so no one should be intimidated by buying the book that they’re not going to understand how to do it. It’s a step by step process and it’s very easily explained.
Michael Scott:
And I think you came out with some pretty cool, trendy names too. I mean, look at this, it’s not a Bloody Mary, a Bloody Good Remedy. I mean, that’s just…
Warren Bobrow:
It is a bloody good remedy.
Michael Scott:
That’s pretty cool, man.
Warren Bobrow:
Someone who’s traveled to Europe would know that because they’d hear people who are from England or from Scotland or whatever and they… you’d hear people complaining and they say, “It’s a bloody good remedy.”
Todd Sullivan:
That’s awesome.
Michael Scott:
Wow.
Todd Sullivan:
All right, Warren, well thank you very much and-
Warren Bobrow:
Thank you.
Todd Sullivan:
… we will absolutely be speaking to you again in the future, I believe.
Warren Bobrow:
I look forward to it. We had fun today.
Michael Scott:
… that I’ve bitten off. But it’s fun, man, it really is.
Todd Sullivan:
Thank you for listening. We’d like to thank our sponsors Cannapreneur Partners for making this podcast possible. If you leave us a good review, it would be appreciated. Each five star review enables us to bring you the highest quality content we can find. Cannapreneur Partners, the host, and any guests on the program, may or may not have or make investments in any of the companies we feature. If you’re interested in making an investment, please check with your financial advisor. If you have any questions, want to appear on the podcast, or like to sponsor one or more episodes, simply send an email to info@canna-media.org. Until the next episode we all here hope you have a very happy and safe day, thank you.
